The EU dont care… lol
If I remember correctly: If it is watertight, replaceable batteries are not required. EZ way to skirt around this stuff.
Nah.
To ensure the safety of end-users, this Regulation should provide for a limited derogation for portable batteries from the removability and replaceability requirements set for portable batteries concerning appliances that incorporate portable batteries and that are specifically designed to be used, for the majority of the active service of the appliance, in an environment that is regularly subject to splashing water, water streams or water immersion and that are intended to be washable or rinseable.
So watertight is definitely enough of a reason.
Except this is a bullshit exception because not only is it 100% possible to make waterproof devices with replaceable batteries, they have existed for years already. There is absolutely no technical reason for this, and the exception probably only exists because the corporations influenced the legislators to effectively gut the law.
I don’t think a phone counts as that since it’s not something that’s expected to be regularly subject to water
That’s really stupid, waterproof phones with replaceable batteries are certainly possible and have been done before.
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We had phones with replaceable batteries for a long time. Many of them were waterproof, but none of them exploded on contact with water.
Water resistance not waterproof. I don’t know if any general consumer phones that are waterproof.
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I don’t follow the metaphor.
Yes they have, which tells me no engineers were consulted for this statement. Waterproofing and replaceable batteries is a trivial combination.
This is simply not the case. Saying it’s ‘trivial’ is like saying it’s trivial to travel to Mars because we’ve sent things there before. Reliably sealing anything with a joint is far from trivial.
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“Apple engineers” lol
Get the Apple out of your ass
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Waterproof phones with replaceable batteries are most certainly possible and have existed for over a decade at least. Sorry, but that argument is total bullshit.
Until you use some of that money for lobbying political influence they don’t.
Facebook can get away with advertising literal scam to kids and old people alike and there are no consequences for them.
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To be fair, accidental damage is never covered under “warranty” (or any other extended service guarantee “warranty equivalents”) from any manufacturer. Given these black rectangles go everywhere with us, it’s still very good to have a device that won’t absolutely crap itself as soon as it gets dropped in water.
I say this as someone who often sees customers bring in water damaged devices, wanting their data off of it.
Frankly though, I wish the term used was “water resistance” and not “waterproof”. That semantic annoys me.
You should read AppleCare+ ToS before you make that claim. They will absolutely let you file a claim for accident damage (it is spelled out in the ToS).
AppleCare is not warranty (but is an equivalent), while AppleCare+ is the equivalent of insurance. I’ve edited my post to clarify this a little better.
Isn’t all damage accidental?
Since Apple make no distinction between “malicious damage” and “accidental damage”, then everything is called accidental. However, there are times where accidental damage is covered under warranty (or rather, a “service program”) when there’s an issue that’s widespread enough that is attributed to a manufacture or design defect – the warping of the plastic on the bottom of the Late 2009 Macbook comes to mind.
Nah, an overbearing parent smashing a phone to “teach them a lesson” isn’t an “accident”
I wish the term used was “water resistance” and not “waterproof”. That semantic annoys me.
In my experience they are waterproof. I have AppleCare+ so if my phone were to suffer water damage it’d be relatively cheap to get it fixed, and I fairly frequently expose my phones to water. I’ve never lost one to water damage so far.
My understanding is the water proof glue can in theory be damaged if it’s exposed to extreme temperatures and the like - that’s why Apple doesn’t cover water damage for free. But I’ve done that too (I’ve had my phone shut down with a temperature error a few times - usually when it’s on my motorbike in the full sun for an extended period of time with a map open… it’s fine while riding with the windchill but if you park the bike or get stuck in traffic, then it can overheat). Mine still hasn’t died int he rain including 60mph driving rain (on the motorbike…) which it’s supposedly not designed to handle. Every time that’s happened I haven’t really had a choice. I’d rather get where I’m going than stand in the rain parked on the side of the road waiting how long, five minutes? three hours? for the rain to stop.
The one time I have lost a phone to the water damage it wasn’t water it was extreme humidity. So I suspect putting the phone in a backpack, and then riding a motorbike in the rain, will actually increase the risk. Proper water has surface tension that stops it entering microscopic gaps. Humidity doesn’t do that. And the inside of a backpack is never dry on a motorbike in the rain.
Frankly though, I wish the term used was “water resistance” and not “waterproof”. That semantic annoys me.
Better is to use an ingress protection code, which provides standardized ratings for exactly how dust and water resistant a device is. Apple does use IP codes and rates the latest iPhones as IP68: dust-tight, submersible at a depth and duration specified by the manufacturer. Apple specifies “maximum depth of 6 meters up to 30 minutes”.
Im curios how often do you drop your phone in water? I swear to god in my now 35 years, I never lost a phone nor a smartphone due to water damage…
I don’t need to be careless or have any real danger of dropping my phone in water to worry about water protection; humidity, sweat, rain, accidental splashes from a sink, spilled drinks, children, etc. are all very real often unpredictable water risks I might have very little opportunity to realistically avoid. I’ve seen those water detection stickers indicate water on devices that I know for a fact have been babied and never dunked for even a moment. Often humidity and a sweaty pocket were the only likely culprit.
I get caught outside in the rain unexpectedly about a dozen times a year living in a tropical city where it can go from dry to raining so heavy you can’t see the other side of the street with about 30 seconds warning.
Those powerful storms are often very small and they might only rain for a minute or two. It’s impossible to predict when they will pass over, the city might be hit by 50 or so of them in a single day, but they’re so small most of the city won’t see any rain even though it technically rained 50 times somewhere in the city.
Despite being small they it can be heavy enough to cause flash flooding. The city has pumps that can force 70,000 litres of water per second out of the city and into the ocean (before that, it was near impossible to live here).
I carry a dry bag for my laptop and headphones everywhere I go, I guess I’d be putting my phone in there too, which will be annoying.
About 20 yeses ago - pre-smartphones - my sister lost a phone to water damage. It was in a backpack pocket during a camping/hiking trip and the backpack got rained on a lot. Everyone else’s phone was fine because they were kept either in waterproof backpack compartments or in trouser/waterproof coat pockets.
Around the same time, I also had a friend whose phone was broken when we were rafting and the raft capsized. The rest of us on the raft had left our phones at home because _why would you risk bringing a mobile phone on a homemade raft?!_
Those are the only two instances I know of personally where someone’s phone has been destroyed by water damage and it hasn’t just been an “oops I dropped it in the toilet” situation (I’m still not sure how people manage that). And even the second example was still due to stupidity, I think - there’s a reason the rest of us didn’t rake our phones on the raft. My sister’s phone being damaged in the backpack is the only one that didn’t feel preventable, and where a water resistance phone would genuinely have been a good thing.
“oops I dropped it in the toilet” situation (I’m still not sure how people manage that).
Have a sweater or a jacket on, put the phone in your pocket. Do your duty, turn just a little too fast when going to flush, and your phone flies out of your pocket and arcs right into your doody.
:(
I swim with my galaxy phone. It’s nice to be able to take pics of my son anywhere in the water park.
People read their phones on the toilet - probably every single modern phone user has done it at least once. It is not inconceivable that a small, but significant, number of them have fumbled the phone and it has fallen into the bowl.
Likewise, pools, beaches, and boats are places people are very likely to go with their phones in tow and in use. It is not unlikely some of those - one can assume - millions of instances have produced some contacts between phone and water.
I ride a motorcycle and mount my phone on the handlebars for guidance. I spend a lot of effort keeping it dry and have actually lost a couple of USB cables (but not the phone, thankfully) to damp.
Even if that weren’t the case, waterproof devices with replaceable batteries have already been made for years. There is no technical reason water resistance precludes replaceable batteries. It’s just more bullshit.
It is called a rubber o-ring.
That’s how other companies have been making water-tight compartments for batteries and other things for literally decades now. But all of a sudden, Apple wants to pretend this is some unsolvable problem. For fucks sakes stop acting like this is some insane ask, goddamn it.
No other government body is as consumer-friendly as the EU, so I really hope this bill passes and forces Apple to comply. I am so sick of the bullshit from these megacorporations who are so big they just don’t give a flying fuck about what consumers want. And on the flipside, there are going to be a million Apple apologists who will side with Apple on this topic. Those bootlickers only make things worse for everyone.
Just wait, Apple will solve this with a rubber o-ring and will receive heaps of praise for their innovation.
You mean magic rings?! Or maybe they’ll be called i-rings.
They’ll come up with some stupid ass name like that to make it seem like it is a proprietary thing. Man, I hate that company so much.
The Magic iRing™ is a cutting edge, replaceable* sealing appartus for your new iPhone 18, made of military grade special compound and sleek design to ensure your new iPhone with replaceable* battery stays sealed to IP67 Standart.
Magic iRing sold separately starting at $99 *replaceable by authorized dealers only, needs to be serialized to your phone, Magic iRing™ must be replaced after every use.
I hate how accurate this probably is.
replaceable by authorized dealers only
I believe that same law doesn’t allow that, no? Or was it another?
The magic retina pro max rings. Available at an extra $29.99
iRing.
The $999 rubber oring
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Whata the draw? What makes you pick Apple over something else?
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I still feel like building an open source os form the code is more secure then believing what a company tells me
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EU wasn’t asking bro
They tried asking before, with the charging connector. Apple effectively ignored them for about a decade, so they’re going with the firmer option now.
Govs should never ask. They must implement the regulation. The corporations are so greedy, they will follow for the money.
So glad to see the Apple fans here aren’t a bunch of blind yesmen. With an R&D budget the size of Apple’s I am sure theres a way to figure somwthing out.
Especially since waterproof phones with replaceable batteries already existed. They aren’t exactly working from nothing.
I remember dunking my flip phone into glasses of water as a party trick and it was totally fine. This would’ve been around 2010 or so.
They exist but not at this thinness. That’s an important difference.
I don’t think anybody really cares about an extra half millimetre of thickness, especially if it means that you can save hundreds in replacement costs and extend its life by a few years. Nobody’s buying an iPhone and busting out the calipers to compare it to their previous phone.
I care. This thing’s already thick and heavy enough, and I don’t particularly care about popping the back off my phone to replace a battery. It’s like…once every two years that I have to replace it.
Apple’s sales fall and people don’t buy new phones because “it looks just like last year’s phone.”
There are so many things a company can change about a phone besides its thickness.
You also start running into usability issues. There’s only so thin a phone can be before it’s less of a phone, and more of a blade that’ll bend if you sneeze at it wrong.
Happened with the iPhone 6
Really refreshing to see Apple fans who have not forgotten they are consumers who have features they want as opposed to accepting whatever decision is made for them.
Other site was a weird mix of people who seemed less Apple consumers and shared more in common with Apple shareholders with the lengths they’d go to defend things from Apple’s financial point of view.
Indeed, I personally consider myself an apple fan but there are definitely things that are bad. People who think apple has done only good and defend them at all time are just imo thr worst.
use 3M’s post-it note glue.
But head on over to Apple on reddit or macrumors and you’ll find plenty of Apple fanboys over there.
It seems they are not going to make batterie replaceable without a fight. The waterproof excuse is crap, they already don’t give us repairs if the iphone is « water dommage » and they can just make a new water resistant design around the new requirements
Same lame excuse they used for removing the headphone jack… Never forget what they took from us and the shitty trend they started in the industry
I think the charging port is the next one to go. Just use wireless charging, roast the battery and buy a new phone when the battery finally dies after a few years. However, if the battery really is replaceable, it’s going to change the economics of this plan.
I don’t think so. They would still need a way to connect to the phone for diagnosis reasons and all that, or to connect to it via iTunes.
That’s still wired, so they can’t get rid of it entirely.
Just so you know, the Apple Watch no longer has a diagnostic port. It’s all 100% wireless now. Source
Apple has been tinkering with this idea for a while now, and it’s already in use. Next, they just need to do the same thing with the iPhone, and they’re ready to ditch all cables.
NFC or something to that effect can be forced"on" with their special charging connection… Or something like that
Would be horrible for data rates but it could be done
The waterproof excuse is crap
Yep. Galaxy S5, released 9 years ago with an IP67, removable battery, sd card and headphone jack with a back you could open with a fingernail.
Yep. Galaxy S5, released 9 years ago with an IP67, removable battery, sd card and headphone jack with a back you could open with a fingernail.
Spot on. They boast about how the iPhone is IP68, but IPX7 means…
Protected from immersion in water with a depth of up to 1 meter (or 3.3 feet) for up to 30 mins
There may be a tradeoff, but I’ll take this level of waterproofing with a removable battery over being able to dunk my phone under water for 2 hours without a removable battery. Like that’s an easy choice.
It’s all moot anyway. This is just Apple trying to justify their anti-consumer standpoint of wanting to own the device after it’s been bought, like every other fucking manufacturer out there. We will own nothing and we’ll be happy about it.
What a horseshit excuse: add 6 screws on your backplate, give it a frame with center glass, add a grommet. Give a torque setting for the screws to have a good seal in your instructions. L
Done.
Samsung did this shit years ago in a phone with a replaceable plastic back.
Don’t go pros have replaceable batteries too and get used in like the ocean?
Yes, but they have a very sturdy case. The gopro itself (without the case) is not waterproof.
Edit: looks like I haven’t kept up with the times (username checks out) and now they ARE waterproof even without the case.
This is wrong btw.
Since the Hero 5, Go Pros have been waterproof without the case. The current GoPro is waterproof to 10 meters without a case or 60 meters with the case.
Compared to the current iphone which is only water resistant, so can be submerged for 30 minutes, upto 6 meters.
I mean if you remove the waterproof case you have a naked circuit board, if they could make that waterproof we wouldn’t be talking about this.
or are you thinking about ancient gopros that needed an extra sealed case?
Yeah, I’ve updated my reply to reflect that.
Most modern gopros still need the extra case for deeper depths
As do almost all phones
Yeah I know, just wanted to make sure nobody takes their unprotected or old gopro to 100ft of depth.
anyone going down 100ft knows if their shit is depth rated
They are if i recall correctly(at least the newer ones) waterproof till about 30ft without the extra case and with it till 150ft or so. But the extra case is very thick and sturdy
Samsung still does it. It’s called the Xcover lineup.
It would be great if the EU steps back:
Dear phone manufacturers. It seems to be impossible to build water resistant phones with easily replaceable batteries. So we have an alternative for you: In future you must provide a unconditional, professional battery replacement, free of charge for 10 years for each individual phone which is water resistant. Since the phones are so water resistant you also have to replace all water damaged phones free of charge.
2 hours later Apple announces a keynote for next week. A week later Tim Cook presents us next years iPhone with an easily replaceable battery…
jeeeeesus christ, the idea that a component in your MOBILE PHONE will never need repair is a one-way ticket to fucking landfill electronics.
add a gasket, holy shit it’s waterproof again!
I mean, they said it never needs to be repaired, so just offer a lifetime warranty if it degrades. Should be easy enough
Liars! Galaxy S5 was IP67. One of the Xperia phones (forgot which one) was also water resistant but without an IP rating. IIRC one of the HTC phones was also water resistant. At the very least Apple, don’t piss in our faces and tell us it’s raining.
Motorola DEFY was IP68 rated
Put THAT in your dust hole, apple nerds!!!
Lmao
what do you call those little plastic building blocks ?
Lego?
I owned the Galaxy S5 and I fucking HATED it’s design. You dropped the phone and it backplate flew off, the seals were terrible, the stupid flap on the charging port broke off super fast. Let’s not use the S5 as an example because that shit fucking sucked.
I miss my S5 :(
You shoulda gotten the S5 active. I loved that phone.
I loved the galaxys5
Treat your devices better then, this was never an issue for me when I had one. And I never had a case on it.
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My old ass Galaxy S5 had a ip67 rating, dropped it into a pool once and still working to this day, so apple and the rest of these phone manufacturers can piss off with this flimsy excuse especially when they’re charging me hundreds of dollars.
Apple needs to have a look at the new Surface devices: https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/14/23761037/microsoft-surface-spare-replacement-parts-microsoft-store and https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/11/23453263/microsoft-surface-pro-9-repairability-improved-ifixit-teardown
Microsoft now sells Surface replacement parts, including displays, batteries, and SSDs / If you have a modern Surface device, then there are plenty of replacement parts to choose from.
Microsoft’s Surface Pro 9 has (…) now has a screwed-in battery module as opposed to an adhered one. Between that and other components having become more modular over the years, repairability is actually achievable.
But instead they’re already bitching to the press about this new regulations. This is the same crap they pulled with USB-C, still no USB-C iPhones whatsoever and unlike everyone else I’m not confident it will happen this year. To be frank Apple even decided to srew the customer even more by having newer iPhones come with USB-C to lightening cables and without a charger instead of plain USB-A.
230$ for a battery!! They have lost their minds lol.
Well, still better than 1000$ for a new iPhone because you can’t replace it yourself, Apple won’t do it for almost the price of a new phone and they lock 3rd party batteries with serialization :) and you can buy 3rd party batteries for a fraction of the cost. What matters is that 1) you can replace the battery - no glued, soldered bs and 2) they actually sell them.
Apple charges $99 for a battery replacement.
It’s not cemented into the chassis lol, Apple replaces it for $99 or you can just buy the part from ‘em and replace it yourself.
Yes the batteries are cemented into the chassis :D The last 3 times I tried to use the pull tabs they added they simply broke before the battery was out.
I mean, that sucks for you but pull-tabs are considered ‘repair-friendly’ by pretty much everyone in the Right to Repair movement.
I believe they might work for a bit of time, but with usage and eat they probably go bad and end up breaking. If you see on YouTube Rossman and others they’ve similar experiences.
Rossman is a device repairman tbf, he sees the worst of the worst phones out there.
Yeah I agree, it’s better to be able to change them than not.
Either way that price point still hurts for a battery (when an original standard enterprise laptop battery is usually less than half the price)
Yes, it’s very overpriced.
Surface is literally twice the thickness of the iPhone (14 vs 7mm). That makes a waterproof iPhone with user-replaceable battery very very difficult, especially since users complained that iphones are heavier than previous models.
iPhone with user-replaceable battery very very difficult
Isn’t Apple allegedly good at engineering? I’m sure they could find a way. There are old Nokia phones that are as thick as current iPhones (or less) and have use-replaceable batteries. This has nothing to do with waterproof, its all about their continued interest in using planned obsolesce and other means to sell new devices.
Being “good at engineering” doesn’t change the laws of physics.
Those Nokia phones were not waterproof. Also, I’m pretty sure they were thicker.
An o-ring only works if the battery cover is rigid enough that it will not flex at all even if, for example, you drop the phone in cold water rapidly cooling the battery cover while the internals stay warm for a minute or two.
The battery cover will change size slightly with the temperature change and no screw can be strong enough to stop that. Covering the entire battery cover in glue and attaching it to the battery though… that will eliminate the movement.
Perhaps Apple can find a water proof battery. But there’s no way they can keep water out of the battery compartment while being user serviceable.
It’s always amusing when people who aren’t engineers assume something must be simple to make. Please show me a Nokia phone that was as thin as a current iPhone, with auto focusing video cameras (aka moving parts), and had a user-replaceable battery. I’ll wait. Samsung’s galaxy phones caught fire because they tried to make it just as thin
with a user-replaceable battery(leading to short circuits), so that’s yet another thing you have to prevent in your hypothetical “it’s easy!” phone. Oh and it has to be rugged enough to withstand multiple drops like current phones AND not lose any of that thinness.Edit: okay the galaxy battery wasn’t replaceable but you still need to make higher tolerances in a user-replaceable item to prevent that, meaning it cannot be too thin for safety reasons.
The Samsung note 7 that had the exploding battery issues wasn’t a removable /swappable battery, so you’re wrong. That whole phone was as glued together as iPhones of the time.
Such a weird take.
Good point, but that still supports my overall point; you’ll need higher tolerances to prevent shorts and fires which means you need thicker casings. A user-replaceable battery has thicker battery cases and connectors compared to devices where the battery isn’t accessible.
Look at laptops for a similar story; making batteries user-inaccessible allowed them to shed thicker casings and instead fill more space when they weren’t constrained by a user compartment and casing and need for easy-detachable connector. Going back to a user-removable design in the exact same size case means slightly lower capacity batteries, which customers don’t want as a trade off.
Did you even open an iPhone? Frankly speaking, if they didn’t have special screws and removed a few of the glued parts it would be more than a reasonable compromise to have to deal with their current connectors to replace a battery. The problem is that even if you have the proper screwdriver you’ll have to deal with glued stuff that won’t come out easily and sourcing batteries isn’t easy.
“User replaceable” can be different from “open a back case with your finger and pop the battery out”. I believe if Apple did something like: remove 2 phillips screws from the bottom of the phone and then the back/front comes out (without single-use adhesives) and a battery hold in place by two other screws and one more for the current power conector it would be “user replaceable” enough for most people and situations. This would be simple changes to their current design that wouldn’t, most likely, require a change to the thickness of the phone nor a complete internal redesign while delivering a very huge improvement in repairability.
By your standard then, Apple already has user-replaceable batteries.
Dude, Apple uses pull-tabs; their batteries aren’t practically fused to the phone’s chassis like Samsung’s.
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This isn’t Reddit, we are actually nice to one another here rather than make stupid taunts.
Sigh, again it’s amazing how non-engineers assume this must be so easy and they’re condescending to boot. The iPhone 14 pro has a much bigger battery than the Samsung Galaxy S5, which was a benefit of miniaturizing other hardware and removing other circuits. Apple could make a phone with removable battery but then you’re talking about going back to a 2014 sized battery with hours shorter battery life. Basically erasing all the gains of the last 9 years. You think Apple should go and build a removable battery anyway and give up their lead and stay behind Samsung, who isn’t making battery swappable phones?
I know you think Apple is being intentionally sadistic and making phones of this design just to piss you off, but surveys show almost nobody swapped their phone batteries. Apple found an engineering advantage. And since you’re being a jerk on Lemmy, blocked.
Which Samsung phones with replacable batteries caught fire? Picture unrelated.
Hey, I never said it was easy, I just said that if Apple applied 35% of the engineering effort they apply into creating vendor lock-in, part serialization and other twisted anti-consumer “solutions” they would be able to accomplish it.
No, it can’t be done. The iPhone is as thin as it is because the battery cover is glued to the battery. Take away the glue and it just can’t be that thin (or at least, if it was that thin it would be too weak - you’d probably snap the logic board by just putting it in a pocket - sometimes phones get pressed against your leg and legs are round).
Unwillingly is also fine with me.
Well, they have to.
They could also tell the EU to get bent and stop selling there.
Good grief.
Too greedy to do that.
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The EU shouldn’t be holding companies hostage. Let the customers decide what they want. The mobile market has plenty of competition. If people really cared about the stuff the EU is trying to push, on the timeline they want to push it, they’d stop buying the product and Apple and others would get the message and make the shift based on market demands.
I wouldn’t mind having USB-C and a replaceable battery, but I’m not going to pretend I know all the trade offs which would need to be made, and I apparently don’t care about those things enough for them to factor in as buying decisions when I get a phone.
The mobile market has plenty of competition.
Fucking lol dude. I’m no economist but there’s no shot the mobile phone marketplace counts as “plenty of competition”. It’s essentially a duopoly. And the barrier to entry is massive.
If you’re taking operating system, sure. But these are all hardware requirements being talked about. So in addition to Apple, there is Google, Samsung, Sony, Asus, OnePlus, Huawei, Oppo, Nothing, and the list goes on.
There is room for some of these players to do all these things the EU is claiming people need, but yet the people don’t see to care enough to actually buy the stuff.
A phone is a series of trade offs and each company decides what trade offs they thinks people can beat live. If they get it right, people buy them, if they don’t, they don’t.
if they don’t, they don’t.
Id like to live in the world you think we do.
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Shouldn’t you be on lemmygrad?
Thanks to the EU we have free roaming internet across EU countries. If this was left to “customers deciding for themselves” there would never be free roaming in Europe.
I can come up with many examples like this. Companies like Apple need to kept on a very short leash.
Fuck water, I want to change my battery.
It’s not even that hard. I had a Galaxy S5, which had Micro-B and a replaceable battery. It’s called using a Cover on your USB Port, and a RUBBER GASKET. It’s not rocket psychology.
