On the one hand, DS9 isn’t really known by people who don’t watch Star Trek. The chance of someone randomly running their mouth about it is infinitely lower than something like TNG or TOS.
On the other hand I can’t see how anyone who watched DS9 can call Garek noble. One of the best episodes in the series revolves around him orchestrating a plot to trick the Romulans into entering the war by assassinating a Romulan senator. Not only does he show 0 hesitation, but he correctly points out that Sisco went to him precisely because that’s his bread and butter.
I mean, first of all, that’s exactly the kind of thing nobles did. I know the word as an adjective in current usage reflects the image that nobles want people to hold, rather than the reality of assassinations of both reputations and persons for political and personal ends, but I think that the distinction is material to the discussion.
Garak is conflicted about many things. He’s a brilliant and multidimensional character - a torturer with a heart of gold - and it is exactly that Janus-like relation to morality as conceived of by Starfleet that makes him so key in the Dominion War. Like Division 31, his character brought into relief the existential question of the role of intelligence services and dirty deeds in a liberal democracy. The Roddenberryverse Federation was the Galahad (or at least the Lancelot) of the galaxy, and the occasional dark aspects that surfaced invoke the role of organizations like the CIA in a democracy. Garak, as a Cardassian and officer in the Obsidian Order, adheres to a broadly different morality, but ends up aligning with the Federation because of his conscience. His multi-faceted relationship with Bashir is often used to show his “odi et amo” relationship to the Federation.
In any case, I think that I’d have to characterize Garak as “noble.” He was constantly thinking about the big picture and the greater good, even if the deck he was playing had a few more cards than some of the Federation folk were comfortable with. If you define “noble” as being completely exclusive of “evil,” then the character concept of the OP cannot exist. That would be a shame, because it’s an interesting concept to explore.
I guess that depends if a noble character can be an “ends justify the means” character.
Garak orchestrated an assassination and frame job but it was for the purpose of defeating the Dominion. Since the Dominion was an oppreeive regime, defeating them serves the greater good and thus his actions could be argued to be noble.
Whether Garak is noble or not really is a philosophical question.
Garak was ready to get himself killed for destroying the Founders and thus preventing the Dominion war. If Worf was 5 minutes late in fact, millions would be alive because of Garak giving his life (and everyone else’s on the Defiant) to save them. That’s pretty noble in my book.
I agree, perhaps what people see as noble in him is that he is incorruptible when it comes to his own moral code. I always think of noble gases when I hear “noble” xD so something that doesn’t mix. And I think that’s right for Garak. Noble as in righteous definitely is not fitting.
He is an incredibly likeable character, but just because that’s a part of his skillset!
We shouldn’t forget that he believes cruelty can be justified, like most Cardassians seem to do. Either a lot of people agree on this take on cruelty, or it’s easy to forget because in the show his cruelty is rarely shown. We just hear about it (mostly).
I don’t think the books are canon but first off Garak is truly one of my favorite characters and second off Andrew Robinson wrote an amazing book about him that I highly suggest you read if you want to know more about him. He’s complicated but is absolutely not a good guy, at least not in the traditional sense.
The book is very good! It’s called A Stitch in Time and apparently the audiobook is narrated by Andrew Robinson. I read the book, mostly in his voice, but now that I know the audiobook was narrated by him I need to get it haha!
Novels are a lower tier of canon, and appear on the Memory Beta wiki, instead of Memory Alpha. There is also a third tier wiki called Memory Gamma. Memory Alpha is generally considered to be an authoritative source on primary canon.
Andrew Robinson, the actor, has said that he played Garak as a bisexual character, and that Garak’s original motivation for befriending Bashir was simple sexual attraction.
If you don’t mind me asking, are you straight? I ask because every queer person I know, myself included, absolutely picked up on Garak’s queer coding, but most of the straight people I know who watched it during it’s original run (or shortly after) didn’t.
What he did wasn’t noble, but it was for the good of the entire Alpha Quadrant. I don’t think it’s unfair to say that he was almost always on the “right” side of things throughout DS9.
Yeah totally. The focal point of “In the Pale Moonlight” was when he told Sisco that he came to Garek precisely because Garek knew how to do sketchy shit like this, and that deep down Sisco knew that something like this was gonna happen with Garek involved.
The thing the world “noble” in popular culture doesn’t use Machiavelli as a reference.
Posts like this confuse me.
On the one hand, DS9 isn’t really known by people who don’t watch Star Trek. The chance of someone randomly running their mouth about it is infinitely lower than something like TNG or TOS.
On the other hand I can’t see how anyone who watched DS9 can call Garek noble. One of the best episodes in the series revolves around him orchestrating a plot to trick the Romulans into entering the war by assassinating a Romulan senator. Not only does he show 0 hesitation, but he correctly points out that Sisco went to him precisely because that’s his bread and butter.
I mean, first of all, that’s exactly the kind of thing nobles did. I know the word as an adjective in current usage reflects the image that nobles want people to hold, rather than the reality of assassinations of both reputations and persons for political and personal ends, but I think that the distinction is material to the discussion.
Garak is conflicted about many things. He’s a brilliant and multidimensional character - a torturer with a heart of gold - and it is exactly that Janus-like relation to morality as conceived of by Starfleet that makes him so key in the Dominion War. Like Division 31, his character brought into relief the existential question of the role of intelligence services and dirty deeds in a liberal democracy. The Roddenberryverse Federation was the Galahad (or at least the Lancelot) of the galaxy, and the occasional dark aspects that surfaced invoke the role of organizations like the CIA in a democracy. Garak, as a Cardassian and officer in the Obsidian Order, adheres to a broadly different morality, but ends up aligning with the Federation because of his conscience. His multi-faceted relationship with Bashir is often used to show his “odi et amo” relationship to the Federation.
In any case, I think that I’d have to characterize Garak as “noble.” He was constantly thinking about the big picture and the greater good, even if the deck he was playing had a few more cards than some of the Federation folk were comfortable with. If you define “noble” as being completely exclusive of “evil,” then the character concept of the OP cannot exist. That would be a shame, because it’s an interesting concept to explore.
What an insightful analysis. Thanks for taking the time to type it out, you made me want to watch ds9 again.
I guess that depends if a noble character can be an “ends justify the means” character.
Garak orchestrated an assassination and frame job but it was for the purpose of defeating the Dominion. Since the Dominion was an oppreeive regime, defeating them serves the greater good and thus his actions could be argued to be noble.
Whether Garak is noble or not really is a philosophical question.
The Vulcans might have approved. Something about the needs of the many…
It is logical to organize crime
I think he qualifies as a magnificent bastard, but he’s definitely not noble. He doesn’t quite match what the poster is asking for.
Garak was ready to get himself killed for destroying the Founders and thus preventing the Dominion war. If Worf was 5 minutes late in fact, millions would be alive because of Garak giving his life (and everyone else’s on the Defiant) to save them. That’s pretty noble in my book.
I agree, perhaps what people see as noble in him is that he is incorruptible when it comes to his own moral code. I always think of noble gases when I hear “noble” xD so something that doesn’t mix. And I think that’s right for Garak. Noble as in righteous definitely is not fitting.
He is an incredibly likeable character, but just because that’s a part of his skillset!
We shouldn’t forget that he believes cruelty can be justified, like most Cardassians seem to do. Either a lot of people agree on this take on cruelty, or it’s easy to forget because in the show his cruelty is rarely shown. We just hear about it (mostly).
He’s insidious. Just like the Federation, and root beer.
The worst part is, after a while you start to like it
Lawful evil
I don’t think the books are canon but first off Garak is truly one of my favorite characters and second off Andrew Robinson wrote an amazing book about him that I highly suggest you read if you want to know more about him. He’s complicated but is absolutely not a good guy, at least not in the traditional sense.
The book is very good! It’s called A Stitch in Time and apparently the audiobook is narrated by Andrew Robinson. I read the book, mostly in his voice, but now that I know the audiobook was narrated by him I need to get it haha!
I am half way through the audiobook, and it’s glorious. Highly recommend.
Novels are a lower tier of canon, and appear on the Memory Beta wiki, instead of Memory Alpha. There is also a third tier wiki called Memory Gamma. Memory Alpha is generally considered to be an authoritative source on primary canon.
I can call him noble. He has his moral code, a very strange one, maybe, of a spy, but still, there is a flavor of nobility in him.
Also, I don’t see how hes gay coded. He doesn’t have a sexuaility.
Andrew Robinson, the actor, has said that he played Garak as a bisexual character, and that Garak’s original motivation for befriending Bashir was simple sexual attraction.
Edit: source https://youtu.be/KQXQm1081xo?t=2289
It really didn’t come across the screen at alk.
If you don’t mind me asking, are you straight? I ask because every queer person I know, myself included, absolutely picked up on Garak’s queer coding, but most of the straight people I know who watched it during it’s original run (or shortly after) didn’t.
Im straight.
Go watch the scene where Garak is leaving and Bashir gives him the chocolates, and tell me you don’t see it in their faces alone
Do you happen to remember the episode?
Improbable Cause s3e20. Beginning of Act Four.
In the Pale Moonlight is one thing, but in Broken Link Garak is caught by Worf attempting wholesale genocide.
In his defense, he wasn’t the first one to try to genocide the Founders. Or even the second.
What he did wasn’t noble, but it was for the good of the entire Alpha Quadrant. I don’t think it’s unfair to say that he was almost always on the “right” side of things throughout DS9.
Yeah totally. The focal point of “In the Pale Moonlight” was when he told Sisco that he came to Garek precisely because Garek knew how to do sketchy shit like this, and that deep down Sisco knew that something like this was gonna happen with Garek involved.
The thing the world “noble” in popular culture doesn’t use Machiavelli as a reference.