Terrorists fan of torture, mass murder, crimes of war, etc. How is it ambiguous?

At the same type you qualified Dukat as respectable, so yeah.

And she supports Polanski.

Strong.

Having the knowledge and memories of Jadzia should be enough for her to know better, especially after a life of a few centuries. A 300 years old trill that actually acts like a 20 years old does nothing apart from eliminating the interest of trills. If they learn nothing from one life to the other, the symbiot is meaningless and so is the concept of trills.

The main interest of science fiction is to explore the moral and social effects of current, past or hypothetical events and technological discoveries. It could be basically called “philosophy through futurology”, and sci-fi without morals is just that, futurology.

Star Trek from the very beginning was like that, with things as simple as explaining that peace, unification of humanity, democracy and elimination of poverty and starvation are all linked and necessary to have a good world.

I guess you’re one of those “stop making shows political” people? Sci-fi shows are by essence here to teach morals, and even if it is unintentional the concept of imagining a future where humanity grew implies applying morals to the show. It’s not avoidable.

The legend that defends rapist pedophiles, sure. Get the fuck out.

Sisko was shown as “morally dubious but the end justifies the means” as in the end no one even scolds him for basically destroying a planet, and Odo was shown as “poor lonely changeling who wants to find his origins” and everyone forgives him no matter how much shit he does, because “they are my people” or something.

The show, shows them like that, with Bashir literally getting recruited after playing James Bond in the holodeck many times and that’s actually one of the arguments that Sloan uses to justify why he should join. Malcolm Reed, who “surprisingly” is also a british character feeling like he’s the coolest guy ever, who is too cool to even answer when someone asks if he likes the food, turns out to be from section 31 too. And in discovery, a certain emperor joining section 31 after showing a lot of “cool moves” and high-tech gadgets that are probably possible to find in some James Bond movie.

As for starfleet, if it is a military organisation under a democratic regime, then it has to follow the same laws and regulations. I am not aware of any military group that can blatantly ignore the law and face no repercussions, in any (pseudo) democratic government. And Discovery doesn’t portray it as illegal at all, explaining that it is at the center of almost all of starfleet’s decision (if I remember properly, an admiral explains that all decisions are first processed by a computer owned by S31, to get an automated suggestion of the decision to take). Such a central element cannot be simply hidden, it has to be allowed by the federation.

As for science fiction, I do not agree. Science fiction is about taking another time/place/context to put the focus on current problems, whether by exaggerating/worsening them, removing them, or isolating them. If you show earth in 300 years and nothing changed, it’s not science fiction, it’s just a fiction that does nothing except change a date. By not showing any difference in how illegal groups like that are handled, the show doesn’t say that it is bad, but instead implies that it is something that never changes. And it is said directly, that S31 existed for a very long time and that it is still here, which implies that it will never leave. Which in turn, encourages apathy on the subject, telling the viewers that it is useless to fight against such groups, they’re just a “constant of the universe”. It is probably not the intended message, but it is the result.

Ezri was a weird thing, most of the toxicity was with Jadzia. But Ezri still chased Worf even though he was avoiding her, started things again then stopped everything for one of the most ridiculous reasons I’ve ever heard. On its own it might not be toxic, but since it sort of still is Dax, it adds on top of Jadzia’s crap.

The difference is that the problems of the older shows were in other times where the concept of discrimination wasn’t as well defined as now.

The original show tried fighting against violence, racism, sexism, but lacked the objectivity to do so, yes, but it was at a time closer to nazis than it is to us (and let’s not kid ourselves, at a time where americans were much more friendly with fascists than leftists). And TNG was visibly trying to keep a moral aspect to the show, and while often failing they were also often succeeding in surprising ways, to the point of even questioning things like genders, 30 years before the question became a more public one. I have a lot to criticise around it, but the good overweights the bad; this is not the case with recent shows where it’s hard to find a single episode without a dubious concept or production choice.

When Discovery decides to show rape scenes, it is a conscious choice, someone had to say “go on, pretend to be raping him”, it’s not a small mistake. The only similar one in TNG is the early racist episode that even Frakes described as “a racist piece of shit”, but it was what, 40 years earlier? I don’t apply the same judgement on something produced now, where the problems of discrimination, objectification, rape culture, etc, are much more known and defined. It was never good, it was never excusable, but now it is not even acceptable.

They were always shown as the sort of cool, James Bond/Batman-like agents that everyone admires for getting their hands dirty for the sake of everyone else.

For DS9, they were for example showing that their solution would have worked, but that it would be immoral; but giving the cure to the changelings was a bet, that was much more risky than killing them all.

For Discovery, what I really didn’t like is that everyone seemed to know about it, an admiral explains that all starfleet decisions are first sent to Section 31 (as far as I understood), which makes it central to starfleet. And they also mention one guy murdering/torturing/?? an innocent ambassador by mistake and not being punished for it.

The lack of accountability for me shows that starfleet does not mind a group above the law, which immediately removes the idea of starfleet/the federation working on democratic principles.

Yes, it echoes with a lot of modern things. But what is the point of making science fiction if all you show is a world that didn’t evolve in over 300 years?

The way I saw it, it felt like they were saying that starfleet command is corrupted and using S31 as a way to get things done no matter how illegal they can be. Which is why when getting caught they would deny down to the existence of it all.

But that’s my interpretation, I admit.

I’m not exactly religious, quite the contrary.

My ethics and morals are based on what I try to make a good ideal: not liking discriminations, authoritarianism, objectification of people, that kind of stuff. If you want to put me in a box, “leftist” would probably be more accurate than “religious”.

I understand perfectly well that a show can give a million different messages based on the interpretation. But there are still many things that, if not objective, can be said with a good degree of confidence. What I criticised is not about shows not demonstrating a perfect world where nothing is wrong, but about them showing immoral (according to my previous paragraph) things in a positive light.

My motivation is simple: Star trek started as a show questioning the world and the notions of bad and good, working almost at a philosophical level (which is the point of science fiction), and it doesn’t seem to be the case anymore. What I try to do is to question what the recent shows contain, and to create some awareness on the reasons that lead me to believe there are many moral issues in them.

And yes, there are many opinions. But one will have to hold very, very strong arguments before I admit that it is morally acceptable to not be inclusive, to objectify people, to tolerate fascism, etc.

If you want to call it trolling to easily dismiss it, fine. The point is to try to make people think more (and not just react to gut feelings) if they are open to it, if they’re not they’re not going to ever agree with me anyway, that’s the magic of cultural bubbles.

Some things were like that. There was also Sisko using bioweapons for a personal vendetta, Odo not fitting in and constantly trying to go with the changelings who are a group of fascist racist violent manipulators, etc.

I’m pointing out the problems that for me are important whether or not other parts are not as bad, or even good. DS9 had good surprises, for example the evolution of Rom and Nog.

It was still unknown whether it was Stafleet, or starfleet individuals supporting it illegally. From Discovery, for example, everyone seems to know about S31, and official starfleet processes go through S31 as a rule, making it part of the starfleet structure and not just an illegal (even if supported) group

Sure, I’ll explain what I meant.

With Odo and Kira, Odo spent years wanting to be with Kira and making her uncomfortable; when she finally accepts, he hurries up, cheats on her and then abandon her forever. Not very nice.

Dax basically manipulated worf into being with her by waiting for him to be psychologically weak before having sex with him despite his complete lack of interest. Klingon rules then make him “forced” to stay with her, and most if not all of their relationship shows Dax not respecting Worf and constantly forcing things on him, cheating on him with a random naked dude before their wedding, forcing him to go to Risa against his will and then being mad at him for not enjoying it, etc.

And then Ezri convinces him they can be together, and breaks up because “I saw bashir in a dream so goodbye”.

Finally for Sisko and Kassidy were actually a good, relatively well written couple with challenges… Until Sisko hears the prophets tell him to not marry her, he does it anyway, gets her pregnant because he doesn’t get his shot, and when the prophets tell him to go with them, instead of telling them to fuck off he stays with them and gives up on his pregnant wife. And on top of that, he implies that he could talk to her but probably won’t, or in a few decades or whatever.

Troy respects no one but herself

And a good handful of fresh worms from under a rock.

You mean where a rigid borg-raised girl suddenly becomes a weird drunkard biker batman? Yeah, they managed to make it even more incoherent.

She was a useless character, making the borg completely absurd and ridiculous (sex suits instead of armour? High heels?), all to just put her in stupid situations where she just is a “damsel in distress” even though she’s supposed to be an augmented human.

I don’t have a lot of problems with Voyager as a show, but Seven is quite obviously at the top.